Joe Roark's IronHistoryArchives.com
The HUGE library of Iron History compiled by Joe Roark.
Welcome to Iron History with Joe Roark!
Joe Roark has been studying the iron game since 1957, and by 1970 began a systematic gathering of information on index cards. By the time his first computer was acquired, there were several hundred thousand references to be typed into it.
For a few years he published his own newsletter called MuscleSearch: The Roark Report. By 1992 he was appointed as the IFBB Men's Bodybuilding Historian, and began writing about history for FLEX in his column Factoids. For ten years he contributed to Iron Game History from the U of Texas at Austin. Recently he also began writing All Our Yesterdays for FLEX.
His passion has always been the period between 1880 and 1920, with particular emphasis on the oldtime strongmen of that era. Joe will be offering bits of history for Cyberpump once per week, and the text will be relevant to the dates of the calendar for those events of yesteryear relevant to the coming week.
In this column, readers will also be able to ask Joe questions or comment on his posts. Note: The comments are solely for interaction between Joe and the readers only -- not reader to reader.
10/31/2008: January 1, 1988 letter from Charles A. Smith to Joe
Thursday, October 30, 2008
Letter from Charles A. Smith to Joe Roark dated January 1, 1988
Dear Joe,
Thanks for yours dated January�damn�December 24th, which I received on Saturday, the 26th. Many thanks.
I spent a quiet Xmas. Vera picked me up on the Monday before Xmas and I stayed over there until Thursday, when I was brought home around noon. Vera and her spouse then taking off for a scuba diving holiday in Cozumel, Mexico, leaving the kids with the other set of Grand parents in Snithville, a small hamlet fifty miles from Austin- and leaving me on my own for Xmas day. Something I don�t exactly care for since my wife died this day in 1959, and it is a time when I shouldn�t be left alone. But I guess what can�t be cured must with patience be endured and we can smile as easily as we can cry. Meanwhile I hung around at home like a fart in a phone booth, until around 5 PM when my other son-in-law came over bearing gifts in the shape of a couple six packs, plus presents for the kids. So all wasn�t too bad after all.
The boys have turned the bugging of their sister into a science. The baby sets it up. I doubt not that if he goes into the Armed Forces, he will reach four star rank in no time flat, his tactical timing and strategy sense is fine honed. He sets things up. Christopher, the oldest of the two will rush up and punch Johannah, or call her names. She will chase him out the Game Room and into the back yard, where he is already up a tree, keeping her occupied by calling out names or spitting down on her.
Meanwhile the baby has gone into her room where he bags everything he can lay his hands on, including her hand bag, which, as I am sure you have discovered by now, is a lady�s sanctum Sanctorum, hides the booty in his room. Vera has already broken up the impending civil war, back comes Christopher and they proceed to empty out the hand bag and mess around with all else they have taken. Of course, when Johannah finds out she�s missing things, our breaks the civil war again. To say the very least, it was a lively holiday. The boys were up at 5 Thursday morning to open their presents, so everyone got up. No sleeping time left.
Had a letter from Chapman to tell that he has to rush his Cyr article. I thought it appeared somewhat hurried and he tells me the Wunderful Wun called him on a Friday and said he had to have it by Monday. Dave of course took notice of this and had the stuff ready by Sunday. This is a usual Wonderful Wun tactic. He once things at once when he really doesn�t need them until three months hence. Whether this is his way of telling people how important he is I don�t know, but I guess it is such.
But what surprised me even more was a letter from Chapman lauding the Wunderful Wun. Dave tells me he had merely expressed appreciation for the WW publishing his Sandow article. Says the letter wasn�t intended for publication and hinted that it may have been �edited�.
I have seen all the latest WW mags and I keep a bucket handy when leafing through them, since the temptation to vomit is strong. Page after page of the latest MUSCLE AND FITNESS is packed with laudatory remarks about the WW. It is now progressing from the downright sickening to the absolutely ridiculous. And he had better get Rick Wayne back to re-take the editorship of FLEX. Now it is as flat as a female�s pre puberty bosom. The MUSCLEANEOUS is a travesty of its former self. True, the mag under Wayne did contain a lot of scatological material, but at least it had some zipp and life to it. Now it is just blah.
It also seems the Cheery Bombay Chappie has got his hairy old Hindu arse in a crack. According to very reliable info, he is being sued not only by the United Nations, but also by five families in Puerto Rico for enticing their kids away from them. There have also been several similar complaints from families in other parts of these here United States- that he has gathered family members into his fold and is holding them against their will.
He has also written a book in which he tells all his followers that they must remain celibate while only he is allowed to screw. I�ll bet the old sod couldn�t come if he was called. He has also issued an edict that when he dies, all his disciples must commit suicide.
He owns a large block of real estate in Manhattan and recently paid fifty thousand bucks to hire a large hall in Toronto, where those held captive had to listen to him tinking on a piano while his cohorts thumped the audience for donations- a collection was made, plus hard selling methods in getting rid of tape recordings of his mantras, paintings, poems etc etc. God knows what will happen if he becomes a martyr- which Heaven forefend.
I have not had any letters from my sally against him in Bob Kennedy�s mag, but if I get any, intend to have a lot of fun with the jerks.
No, I never did meet Pudgy. But of course I have seen loads of stuff about her. At one time she was a regular fixture at Muscle beach, much like the barbells there.
I haven�t heard anything about MEN�S FITNESS. In fact I haven�t even seen a copy. I write ridiculous letters to WW over his mags and the amount of bovine bowel movement contained therein. No reply. I wonder why?
Who is Bob Gajda? The name seems familiar. I got a letter from some bloke named George XXX in Lancaster, Penn, asking me if I had seen Gajda�s book or pot boiler, in which he lambastes the French for not taking baths. How he got hold of this piece of info I don�t know. But from my experience, the French are as clean as any other civilized nation- in fact more so since most of the ordinary apartments contain a bidet, a curious piece of apparatus, over which one sits after a BM or a good screw and has a jot of water squirted all over one�s fundament. I have NEVER seen such a piece of bathroom equipment in ANY other National rest room inventory.
HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU AND YOURS. My other granddaughter graduated from the U of T with a BBA and is already working.
Chas.Posted by TheEditor @ 07:14 PM CST
10/24/2008: The conclusion of Charles A. Smith's December 17, 1987 letter to Joe
Friday, October 24, 2008
This is the conclusion of a letter written to Joe Roark from Charles A. Smith, dated December 17, 1987:
Three times now Balik has assured me my Eder article will appear NEXT issue. But like tomorrow, his next issue doesn�t come. As I may have mentioned I have heard some ugly rumors that tend to reveal a certain friend of mine has induced Balik NOT to publish the article. But these are rumors and one cannot take any action with no proof or solid substance provided, and I am reluctant to believe what I have heard, being a trusting soul who can�t think that anyone would do what has been rumored.
Was it you who told me Balik is claiming he has increased his sub list by a thousand and his news stands sales are rising rapidly? Some one did.
[Roark note: I did not tell Charles the above]I think you would be well advised to stay where you are and NOT take any job with NAUTILUS. As good old Bill Shakespeare has said somewhere or the other, �Better to cling to the fears we know of� or something like that. With your 19 years in at U of I and Geni�s job, you have too much to lose by relocating. You�d be surprised- or would you- at the vast number of employers who cringe when they hear the words �I�m over 40�.
I absolutely agree with you when you say a move to Texas would be too chancy, and, if I might preen, even gloat a little, didn�t I tell you so several letters ago. A bird in your hand may make it IKKY, but it is still a bird in your hand. Then too, people makes promises on the spur of the moment and are sorry they did the next whiz past the following second- Like brother XXX and his smoked salmon, which I can smell but can�t see at all.
I doubt very much if the Wunderful Wun will publish the translation of Les Rois De La Force. There just isn�t anything in it to interest moderns and anyway, ALL of its contents have been used by old time strength writers who have either attributed sources or have conveniently failed to do so. Actually, reading it in the French tongue in DULL DULL DULL. I know. I was translating the strong women section for Jan just before I decided I had had enough. Of you know who that is and not Les Rois De La Force.
Getting back to your once proposed move to Texas. I have a friend in Western Australia. He�s a London Cockney like me and moved to Kangaroo land in 1947. He has done very well for himself there, but the silly old silly now, close to retirement, proposes to MOVE BACK TO LONDON.
I have argued with him time and time again, telling him that he would just not understand- nor would he care for- the vast cultural, economic and social changes that have taken place since he last saw the UK thirty years ago. He just doesn�t understand that NOTHING ever remains the same, that what he knew and loved- just as what I knew and loved had GONE and for ever. He would be much better off where he is.
He cannot realize that England id DYING, or at least the England he knew. I feel the shock will be too much for him. The same old values pertain. The same old class distinction is still there. The same Old Boy-Best Schools set-up still runs the country and a working class man or lower middle classer doesn�t stand a chance.
The country, like ours, is fast turning into a society of the very wealthy and the very poor. He would be frightened at what is happening. They are taking the old dockland areas and turning them into luxury apartments the cheapest of which- a ONE ROOM, ONE BATH deal sells for a quarter of a MILLION dollars and the most expensive, a three room two bath deal is going for TWO MILLION. Meanwhile no new housing or better housing is being built for the poor. The number of families living on the streets is increasing because of lack of low income housing, just as here. He is in for a tremendous culture shock. But he won�t listen. I have advised him to first take a holiday before he makes up his mind to return permanently. I hope he does, One hates to lose a friend or see a friend suffer un-nessessaryily- have I spelled that word correctly?
I suppose I�ll be spending my Xmas Holiday with Vera and family. I hope so. I just can�t wait for those two little imps to start scaling me like I was Mount Everest. What a marvelous feeling to know that someone loves you for just what you are- POPPA.
Have a good Christmas and sink one for me,
Best to you and Geni and Meg,
Chas.Posted by TheEditor @ 05:29 AM CST
10/17/2008 - December 17, 1987 letter from Charles A. Smith to Joe
Thursday, October 16, 2008
Letter from Charles A. Smith to Joe Roark, December 13, 1987:
Dear Joe,
Thanks for yours of December 13th, which arrived here yesterday. Good as always to hear from you.Not too much news from this end. Balik hasn�t written me nor has he phoned. It matters not that I write letters. He never answers them and thus discloses himself as an ill mannered schmuck. But both you and I have met�em.
[Roark note: Charles is seeing this situation only from his own viewpoint, and has no direct knowledge of how busy Balik was at this time. Keep in mind that at the beginning of 1987, John had bought Ironman magazine and was trying to enlarge its size and spread its circulation. I happen to be privy to a couple of problems John was having during that first year, and I fully understand that he had more pressing issues than replying to Charles� letters, so in no way should you interpret that because I present Charles� words that I agree with them. Later, as you will see, when I became very busy in my life and was working three and at one point four, jobs, Charles� ire was aimed at me for not replying as he thought I should. He had loads of extra time available so he had plenty of time to write. And, apparently thought others should respond promptly.]
Ah, the mistakes we make. And we all do. But mistake making is not without its benefits. At least, if we have an ounce of noodle matter we don�t make them again and are thus the wiser for the errors we are guilty of.
Now Willoughby NEVER but NEVER made mistakes. And if you disagreed with him over any matter, you were on his shit list for ever and aye.
Take for instance his bit you mentioned about Saxon appearing in the �OLD SOUTH LONDON ROAD.� He was in error here and repeating what he had read elsewhere. It should have been �THE OLD SOUTH LONDON MUSIC HALL� in the London Roard, a street leading out of the large nexus, or known as the Elephant and Castle. The music hall was also known as the CANTURBURY MUSIC HALL and Hack also appeared there. Typical working class place.
So much of what we read these days about the Old Timers is so much hog wash. It is stuff picked by comtemporories (sic) from blurbs or hype written years before.
Take for instance, Dave Chapman�s piece about Cyr in a recent MUSCLE AND FITNESS. In one section it tells of Cyr doing a SLOW PRESS two hands with 340 odd pounds. It also says he did a slow press with the right arm with 273? Pounds and the same poundage with the left. But nowhere does it explain what sort of slow presses Cyr did. He could have been bent back at right angles, pressing �slow� and the same with his right and left hand. So one is left with the impression that these one and two hand presses were MILITARY and I have seen it so written up. I would suspect that the one arm presses were side presses or devisse presses and the slow press with two hands was the old clean and push, once a BAWLA competition lift. Thus do legends get given birth- lousy construction there- and thus arguments arise and Willoughbys arise to cause more arguments.
So who�s perfect. Every dog has at least one flea.
Take the idiotic stuff written about the Wanking Wunder of Woodland Hills. How he invented this and that and how his first mag was mimeod, And people are believing it. Ugh.
I have never seem that copy of BODY BEAUTIFUL. That was one of Joe�s fag mags methinks. If I had ever known there was a likelihood of me showing up in that muck, I�d have raised holy hell. Are you sure it was Body Beautiful. If possible, and if no trouble, could you send me a stat of it- which I will return- so I can, for your info, let you know who is who?
I thought you had already been done and gone to see daughters and rejoice at the graduation of one from nursing school. I think I told you, my oldest grand daughter had graduated from U of T Business School and had already got her job with a department store TARGET as a management trainee staring at 18 thou 7 hundred a year.
By the by. Vera has landed herself a lush job with a nation wide health care service. She will be their trouble shooter in the Austin area and surrounding states. Her title is Field Supervisor and she will also instruct in cancer chemo therapy. The only thing that bothers her is the tons of paper work, which, like me, she hates, being a doer rather than a red tape artist. She starts January first and is quite excited about it and is happy that at least she is out of the Hospital close to me which she was hating.
[The conclusion of this letter will be next week.]
Posted by TheEditor @ 08:05 PM CST
10/10/2008 - Q&A With Joe
Thursday, October 9, 2008
Question:
Joe,
I have read verying reports of the height of Louis Cyr, from 5'8" to 5'11".What was his actual height? Secondly, at what bodyweight did he perform his greatest feats of strength?Thanks.
Answer:
Good question!
In Your Physique magazine Dec/Jan 1944/1945 Willoughby offers the changing bodyweight of Cyr over a range of 19 years:
In 1891- 294 lbs, in 1896-315 lbs, and in 1910-365 lbs. In all that time span Willoughby gives the height at 70.5" (or 5'10.5").But in Super Athletes page 56 Willoughby offers "when full-grown he stood only 5 ft. 8-1/2 in." Which would be, of course, 68.5".
Cyr's public career spanned from 1881 to 1906, with probably his peak in the time zone of 1892-1896 when he would have weighed approx. 300 to 315 lbs.
Cyr's backlift, estimated at 4,300 lbs, Willoughby thought unlikely, and more likely around 3,900 to 4,000 lbs- allowing 500 lbs (a liberal estimate Willoughby asserted) for the backlift platform [compare to Anderson's claimed 1,800 pound platform!) and the bodyweights of 18 men- who were not weighed but simply stated their weights. This was May 27, 1895.
Question:
Joe,
What is Val Vasilieff's birth place and Nationality?Answer:
Val was born in Lincoln Hospital in NYC. I am told his date of birth is confidential, but if he was, as reported, age 25 when he won the Mr. America in 1964, then his year of birth would be approx 1939.
Question:
Dear Mr.Roark,
I think Your "Iron History" is interesting and amazing work.Iron mans in the past are very good, my favorite are Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sergio Oliva.
About Sergio I know two measured data:
1. Height - 178 cm,weight - 96 kg, chest - 134 cm, biceps - 53 cm, waist - 80 cm, thigh -72 cm, calf - 47 cm;
2.Height - 178 cm,weight - 94 kg, chest - 132 cm, biceps - 52 cm, waist - 80 cm, thigh -72 cm, calf - 47 cm.I heard that in 1972 at Mr.Olympia competition his arms was 58 cm and waist - 70 cm! This is fantastic.
Is it correct? Have You any data about Sergio's measurement at this competition(Mr.Olympia'72),or other measured data ?With best regards,
Vesselin RadevAnswer:
Mr. Radev,
When I asked Sergio in Atlanta at the time of a Mr. Olympia some years ago if I could measure his arm- which remained huge-he said no, and that 'your guess is as good as mine' about its size. Had I guessed 17", Im not sure what his response wouldhave been.
In his prime, Arthur Jones measured Sergio's flexed upper arm at 20.5" I believe; Arnold's was slightly smaller.
There is no reliable source for the measurements of top bodybuilders. Lots of gossip, rumor, hype though.
Unless there are witnesses and the tape measure is correct, some of the reported size claims should embarrass those making them. And when verification is avoided, then at least for me, so is belief.
Question:
I was in Vancouver not long ago and will be back in the near future. Do you have any information about the final resting places of Doug Hepburn and John McCallum?
Thanks.
Answer:
Marvin,
Sorry, I do not know.Have you tried running a search on feneralnet.com ?
Victoria has one funeral home listed, and if you call, perhaps they will have a record if they handled services.
Roland Essmaker, Mr. America 1939, died last Thursday, Oct 3, and I did some checking, found the funeral home, and some details (after a newspaper search failed)- then learned from the funeral home official that no newspaper reports would be printed, that only a graveside service will be held tomorrow at the San Marcos, California, Cemetery. (Oct 7 at 2pm)
One of the databases I have hoped to get going is one listing where famous iron people are buried- but this would depend on many, many people offering details.
Not too long ago I was in York, and Jan Dellinger took me to the graves of John Grimek, John Terpak, and Bob Hoffman.
Good luck with your search! Tell the funeral home folks that Hepburn died Nov 22, 2000. He was cremated. A friend of mine attended that service, so I will try to reach him for details.
McCallum died Sep 21, 1989.
Question:
Joe,
I'm enjoying your Iron History column immensely! Would like to see detailed coverage of Apollon and Arthur Saxon beginning next year.
My question is did Apollon ever lift overhead the 366lb Apollon Wheels? We know that Rigoulot, Davis, and Schemansky have done so, but does anyone know for sure if Apollon himself actually did it? Osmo Kiiha tends to doubt it (see Iron Master #15 page 6). Just wondering what your opinion is on this.
Regards,
Joe MatriscianoAnswer:
Joe,
Yes, I think Apollon could handle the wheels and did so often. He lifted 15 lbs less on a thicker bar.
Remember, Apollon always power cleaned- no dipping. Please see cyberpump.com news archives for Jan 14, 2002 for my piece on the history of the wheels.Thanks,
JoeQuestion:
How much did Davis weigh when he lifted the wheels? Was it when he weighed <90kg or after he gained to 233 or something?
Answer:
Nathan,
John Davis had competed in the World's WL championships at about 225.5 lbs the week before he lifted the wheels, so he would have been in that range on the date of the wheels, which was Sep 13, 1949.
Question:
I'm curious as to the specifics of the 727 pound lift: thickness of bar, presence of knurling, revolving sleeves or not, and was the lockout complete? I tend to value this feat as the single greatest exhibit of strength in modern times, if indeed it was a standard olympic type bar lifted to full lockout. Joe, do you have an opinion?
Answer:
This amount was an unofficial lift; officially Hermann managed 663.5 three
weeks later, officially.Here is the essence Willoughby from ironman Feb 1963 p 42 about the 727.5 lbs. "...one-handed deadlift (using a thumb-lock, or hooked grip)..."
largest plates were 17.75" diameter, bar was 1.1" thick, Goerner's
bodyweight was 220 lbs- so his official one hand deadlift of 663.5 lbs
was TRIPLE his BODYWEIGHT. One handed? He was 29.5 years old and in the last year of his amateur standing.Check the Extras section for the official definition of the right or left hand deadlift, because 'full-lockout' as you may be thinking (trunk vertical) was NOT a requirement for the one handed deadlift (at least in Britain- HG was in Leipzig, Germany). In Britain the requirement was to get the bar 'at least' to the knees. Frankly, I do not know what the German rule was.
My opinion? Have not settled on this one yet, but there is doubt in my view.
Question:
I read your response on another board about the arm size of john grimek. I have that same ironman from where the info came from. an article from the iron master by osmo kiiha stated that his arm was 18.5 inches cold. The same ironman issue had an interview with reeves also. He stated 18.25" arm, calf and neck. I was wondering if that was a slight exageration too? He always talked about symmetry and I'm curious if he makes those claims to support his idea of the ideal physique.
I was also curious of who was the first muscular individual to have legit 20" arms. I have heard mcwilliams, colbert and countless others. with everybody exagerating I'm guessing it didn't really happen till the 1970's or even the 80's? possibly sergio? thanks.
Answer:
I have a letter from John McWilliams in which he tells me his largest upper arm size was 20.5" with the measurement taken cold (before pumping up).
Sergio would not allow me to measure his arm a few years ago in Atlanta, and he looked huge. Jim Quinn refused me; Paul Dillett refused me; Nasser El Sonbaty refused me.
I frankly do not know whose arm measured how much, if all we have to use as judgment is the subject's word.
Grimek and Reeves were not known for their huge upper arms- and that is not intended as a slight to them in any way.
I measured Vince Taylor's pumped arm at 19.75", and I measured Manfred Hoeberl's cold arm at 25.5 and pumped at 26" (not a misprint, twenty-six inches).
Just as we should pay no attention to lifting claims without proof, so we should ignore measurement claims without proof.
Taylor gained my respect that night backstage at the Arnold Classic- I was expecting another refusal and he said 'Sure, no big deal'. I said, 'Oh, it's a big deal to those to claim more than they have'.
One of the planned features for ironhistory is a review of arm size through the years- from the days when people actually employed a tape measure rather than a guess to determine circumference, to the current days when some photos show such obvious fake measurements that you'd suppose the photographer and the builder being measured should be banned to the
land of loonies.Nutshell: an 18" arm is large, a 19" arm is huge, a 20" arm is a wondrous sight, and anything larger is seldom encountered in the 'natural' world.
Question:
Mr. Roark:I am intrigued by the idea that several well-known "records" were actually exaggerated.First,does anyone of equal stature to yourself in the Iron Game History field believe that Goerner's and Inch's claims might be valid? and second, what is your take on Doug Hepburn's critique of some of Paul Anderson's claims,or claims made for Paul by someone else,such as the 300 pound db press? Thank you for listening.
Answer:
Jeff,
Before I began studying Inch's claims regarding his famous 172 pound dumbell, or began looking into Paul's famous backlift, I accepted the views that had been presented over the years because there was no opposing view, which I had thought surely would have been presented had there been any dissent.
Regarding Inch, after several months of almost obsessive study of every reference I could find about him, it became sky blue clear that either no one else had ever studied the matter this intently, or if they had, either conclusions varied from mine, or had been kept away from print. If I were asked to defend Inch and his lifting of the Inch 172 bell 'hundreds of times'
I would be forced to ignore several texts and several pieces of his own presentation of the facts over the years, and go with just his claims.I am unaware of anyone publicly doubting Inch before my MuscleSearch presentation years ago, or the more recent research (in which I found errors in my MuscleSearch conclusions) in ironhistory.com. Now, amazingly, it appears that when Mark Henry cleaned the Inch bell at the Olde Timers gathering in Saddle Brook, New Jersey, this year, it is generally being accepted as the FIRST TIME the bell has ever been cleaned. No one, that I am aware of, is rushing to re-instate the 'hundreds of reps' that Inch claims he managed.
Regarding whether other historians agree with me, frankly, I wish they would speak publicly to the issue- even if they disagree with me- because perhaps I missed something. If not, then their reinforcement would certainly help settle the matter.
Regarding Anderson, same situation. The simple math of the matter is again sky blue. If Paul claimed that after he had added weights to the safe, it ended up weighing 3,500 pounds (and he did claim that), but in fact the safe weighed about 2,300 pounds (and it does) then the 1,200 pound difference in reality must be subtracted from the overall total of 6,270. Why this reporting error happened? Don't know. But it did happen, so for the sake of accurate history it should be noted. If you have not seen the photo of this safe, please check the ironhistory.com gallery.
After checking with master locksmiths I learned that there was another, larger safe that did weigh 3500 pounds, so perhaps this is where the error entered the picture. Nonetheless, the safe Paul used for the backlift and which his daughter had weighed came out at about 2,300 pounds. This is not rocket science, but simple math.
Regarding whether other historians agree with my conclusions. Again no one has spoken publicly that I am aware of, except Randall Strossen whose conclusions are the opposite of mine. I think he is wrong, he thinks I am wrong. If Glossbrenner has spoken to the issue I am unaware of it- same with Chapman, Webster, or others. I did hear privately from another historian who acknowledged that he thought I had shown that Paul did not perform the claim backlift. This is a very respected man who used to think I was 'after' Paul. Until I check with him for permission to mention his name (he contacted me privately) I will not use his name. But the list is short of possible candidates. And, of course, professor John Fair's writings indicate he has reached the same conclusions as have I.
Hepburn's upper body strength in some ways surpassed Anderson's- most certainly in the two hands barbell curl, so Doug was not in awe of Paul. Indeed, Doug told me that he thought he was stronger than Paul in the bench press- at least on one occasion when they had an impromptu contest.
The one arm pressing claims for Anderson, which are usually described as side presses (hopefully NO ONE would assert they were military presses, or bent presses) range in poundages enough one wonders about range of motion and weight involved. I simply don't know. Any photos I have seen of his one arm presses do not plate-total to the amount the photo caption indicates. Again, Doug's pressing ability was in Paul's neighborhood. Did Doug make such claims? Frankly I have not studied Paul's one arm presses as much as I have his backlift. I will say, any number of lifters have surpassed Paul's official weightlifting records, but no one has come anywhere near a 300 pound one arm side press, anyone that I am aware of, that is.
Perhaps someone can shed additional information on these matters.
Regarding Goerner, please keep in mind that some of the very high deadlift numbers were also unofficial lifts. It is important to know WHEN certain lifts were first reported because sometimes numbers become inflated as the years pass. I have not looked into Goerner's feats in the detail needed, so will not comment beyond saying that what I have checked causes me some concern, especially when very skilled lifters in his day expressed concern.
No one loves the history of iron more than I. Any love demands honesty.
Posted by TheEditor @ 07:32 PM CST
10/3/2008: Letter from Charles A. Smith to Joe Roark, December 11, 1987 pp 3-4
Thursday, October 2, 2008
Letter from Charles A. Smith to Joe Roark, December 11, 1987 pp 3-4
When Tommy Inch and Edward Aston were lifting- Inch the heavyweight and Aston not going above middleweight- both made slightly over 300 pounds [in the bent press].
And I believe, since I�ve seen shots of them, both at one time used a cambered bar, which makes it easier for both one and two hand cleaning. But Saxon is always shown using a STRAIGHT BAR.
I believe his lawsuit with Sandow arose out of the claim made by Saxon that Sandow had FAILED to bent press the bar Saxon lifted over his head.
The trial was, I think, held at the Birmingham Asizes (sic). I believe in their �match� Sandow did bent press the bar to arms� length but could not recover to upright position- note the weight of the bar lifted- far, far below what Saxon claimed he had lifted. When the case came to trial, the judge ruled in favor of Sandow, awarding him the sum of 500 pouunds sterling. He claimed that Sandon had indeed lifted the bar above his head- as he HAD- thus the judge was right LEGALLY but dead wrong in a weightlifting sense. But the judge was SEAD RIGHT. Sandow HAD lifted the weight. And legally that could not be gainsaid (sic). Saxon should have picked as good a lawyer as Sandow picked.
Little Neport (sic) Street is a somewhat sleazy side street in London�s Soho district, bohemian and all that. The lifting �club� was run by Bill Bakier (sic) known as the Scottish Apollo. I know just where it is- just off Leicester Square, and then, as now, a parade for prossies.
The Bill Klein spoken of also ran a gym mainly for wrestlers and off the Tottenham Court Road close to where Mile Brinn had his pub. This was the place where, later, Saxon is said to have bent pressed 375, with dumbbells tied onto the bar, said weights kept falling off and loaders shoving them back on again. NONSENSE. Just another bit of fable added to the tale, much like the tales of King Arthur and Robin Hood.
In the lawsuit, the court WAS NOT IGNORANT of the bent press rules. Saxon claimed that Sandow HADN�T LIFTED THE WEIGHT. But it was demonstrated that he, Sandow HAD indeed lifted the weight, albeit not according to the rules. But lift it above his head HE HAD although not completing the lift. The court was well briefed as to what rules applied re the bent press. Of that you and all of us may be sure.
I doubt very much if the first public record made by Saxon in the bent press was made at Old South London Road. This address referred to the old Canterburry (sic) Music Hall, and now no longer there. I have been in it as a little child with my parents.
The question that should be asked here is- What? Saxon didn�t use the bent press until he came to England. Of course he did. In Germany where he learned to use the bent press and obviously, since he performed as a pro there, must have exhibited publicly in his favorite lift.
Saxon is said to have died from pneumonia at a relatively young age. But I seem to remember seeing mention of him in the very late 1910s possible (sic) in 1919 or 1920, the year before my sister was born, giving a bent press exhibition in some London physical culture school, said exhibition being reported in the old HEALTH AND STRENGTH� Oh, what I wouldn�t give for a complete set of those mags. Worth tens of thousands if you had them.What you need Joe is for someone to die and leave you a few million bucks so you can go over to the British Museum and go through their entire collection of H&S.
I have never believed that mercury story [in the handle of Saxon�s barbell]. If it was difficult for one then it was so for everyone else. Mercury is a hard and totally impartial judge.
As I have mentioned, that tying on of dumbbells and plates is said to have taken place at Bill Klein�s gym with not 400 but 375. Excuse for tying on the db�s and plates was there weren�t sufficient weights handy- plates that is- to load the bar. There is a contradiction here since if they had plates to TIE on the bar, then why didn�t they load them on in the usual way. Pullum is SAID to have been witness to this, but always disclaimed he was there.
Enough.
Have a good time at Xmas and if you do by some unlikely chance- since I know you abhor the stuff- do raise a glass of beer, think of me and wish me well. I don�t know what I�ll be doing for Xmas. I�ve received no word of mt being invited to Vera�s, so I may spend the holidays on my own.
The best to you and yours,
ChasPosted by TheEditor @ 06:46 PM CST
