Joe Roark's IronHistoryArchives.com
The HUGE library of Iron History compiled by Joe Roark.
Welcome to Iron History with Joe Roark!
Joe Roark has been studying the iron game since 1957, and by 1970 began a systematic gathering of information on index cards. By the time his first computer was acquired, there were several hundred thousand references to be typed into it.
For a few years he published his own newsletter called MuscleSearch: The Roark Report. By 1992 he was appointed as the IFBB Men's Bodybuilding Historian, and began writing about history for FLEX in his column Factoids. For ten years he contributed to Iron Game History from the U of Texas at Austin. Recently he also began writing All Our Yesterdays for FLEX.
His passion has always been the period between 1880 and 1920, with particular emphasis on the oldtime strongmen of that era. Joe will be offering bits of history for Cyberpump once per week, and the text will be relevant to the dates of the calendar for those events of yesteryear relevant to the coming week.
In this column, readers will also be able to ask Joe questions or comment on his posts. Note: The comments are solely for interaction between Joe and the readers only -- not reader to reader.
5/28/2004: Hermann Goerner: Reading references- compiled by Joe Roark
Thursday, May 27, 2004
Here are selected reading references regarding Herman Goerner. Please note that @ means a paragraph or paragraphs rather than an article. Pho means photo.
I am not indicating that I agree with everything here referenced, but you should have access, or at least a guide to these articles so you can determine how you feel about Hermann's place in strength history. I further realize that this is a map to nowhere if you lack access to these sources. Nonetheless, the list can serve as an aid for you to decide which old mags or books you need to read more about Goerner.
If you have not joined us at the forums at ironhistory.com, there is a thread there about Goerner's Birthday in which several of his lifts are being debated. Sign-up is free but real name registration is required- we have debates and discussions of a mature not a manure nature.
I should mention my agreement with Leo Gaudreau who wrote in Your Physique, July 1950, 'Some terrific deadlift claims have been made for Goerner and without wishing to discredit such claims, their lack of authenticity does not merit inclusion herein.' Leo was not taken in by Goerner as were others who studied iron history, including, regrettably me, when I simply repeated, without fresh investigation, what so many had presented before me. But refs to his deadlifts are included for completeness.
Hermann Goerner Apr 13, 1891 to Jun 29, 1956
Strength & Health: Aug 1933 p 9 @ pho lifting 300 lbs
Feb 1935 p 22 HG- monarch of strength- Van Diggelin
Apr 1936 p 11 @- Miller
Sep 1937 p 32 WAP is shown measuring the 18" arm of HG, @
May 1940 p 42 @ pho
Jul 1941 p 17 @ drawing of 793.75 lb deadlift- Venables
Dec 1941 p 17 @ drawing pushed 387lbs in Vienna in 1907
Feb 1946 p 5 pho obit; died two years ago, news just received; this of course is incorrect
Apr 1947 p 12 @ pho Pullum measuring 18" arm of HG
Jan 1948 p 32 letter (not presented) from HG indicates his dire circumstances; he was not a Nazi
Apr 1948 p 22 @ 1927 movie short of HG in England in 1927
Dec 1948 p 22 @ pho sitting on top of a globe 'on top of the world'
Apr 1949 p 10 @ Elsie had died, Hermann was in dire straits
Jun/Jul 1949 p 8 letter to editor about John Dawe visiting HG; pho, 3@
Nov 1949 p 37 John Dawe 'recently' measured HG; right arm cold 17.5 (approaching age 59) forearm straight 14-1/8, wrist 8-1/4 [Dawe told Roark this did not take place]
May 1951 p 49 @ pho at age 17
Dec 1951 p 16 pho and story; pho one shoulder support of 4 men p 23 pho HG and Mueller
May 1952 p 23 pho in street clothes, with Van Diggelin; p 46 HG sings in his community's glee club
Mar 1953 p 19 An oldtimer looks at HG- Hasse
Jun 1953 p 26 @ drawing of deadlift 793.25 lbs on Oct 29, 1920 in Leipzig in connection with article by Richard V. Gaslen 'Modern Athletes Are Sissies'.
Aug 1953 p 9 HG was the strongest of them all- Van Diggelin
Oct 1956 p 22 @ obit, Jun 29, 1956 [cf Feb 1946 p 5]
Feb 1958 p 15 @ pho plank supporting 16 men
Jun 1958 p 12 @ his 602.25 lbs right hand deadlift witnessed by Paul Getty
Jan 1962 p 22 @ pho 'wrestling' elephant
Feb 1963 p 42 Description of HG's 727.50 lbs one hand deadlift - Willoughby
Apr 1963 p 46 @ about his offset-hand snatch of 132.50 lbs
Jun/Jul 1974 p 66 @ deadlift 793.75 in 1920
Hermann Goerner: Muscle-Up magazine: Dec 1979 p 30 Yesterday's champ, 4 pho- Karras Aug 1980 p 43 @ one hand deadlift 727 in 1920
Hermann Goerner in Muscular Development magazine: Mar 1965 p 38 pho deadlift 595.50 with index fingers and forefingers only of each hand Jan 1968 p 62 @ deadlift almost 800, unofficially May 1968 p 27 @ pho rear double biceps pose Nov 1969 p 21 pho deadlift 595.50 with only four fingers @ Sep 1970 p 20 @, pho 4 men on bar on his shoulders p 58 @
Hermann Goerner in Health & Strength magazine: Mar 19, 1927 p 300 First impressions of HG - 'special correspondent'
Jul 23, 1927 p 97 HG to appear in Wales- Pullim
Jan 9, 1932 p 36 letter to editor from W.A. Howitt wondering where HG is, what he's doing, and why H&S should update this info. Also on p 36 is a @ about how HG used Pullum's 'special' bar and George Walsh saw HG jerk 390 for two reps behind the neck
Apr 23, 1932 p 487 @ about his wife Elsie's grip strength
Sep 24, 1932 p 393 Lowry's comments on HG's Mar 5, 1927 deadlift of 652.25 lbs. Lowry adjudicated the lift and said HG used the French grip (both palms toward knees but THE STRONGMAN magazine had mistakenly said he used a reverse grip)
April 1946 p 166 @ died [this was an error, see S&H Oct 1956 p 22]
Apr 10, 1947 p 232 HG- enigma of strength- Aston
Oct 9, 1947 p 798 in a letter to Van Diggelin, HG wrote of his circumstances in recent years.
Feb 12, 1948 p 113 @ address given
Sep 22, 1949 p 13 letter from J.P. Osborn saying he had seen HG perform in Pagel's circus
Dec 14, 1950 p 38 first ad for the book 'Goerner the Mighty' to be published soon
Jul 19, 1956 p 26 died Jun 29, 1956
Aug 2, 1956 p 32 Story- The passing of a king of Strength- Pullum [liver problems]
Mar 19, 1927 p 300 First impressions of HG- 'special correspondent'
Hermann Goerner in Iron Man magazine: Jan/Feb 1949 p 14 HG's deadlift record- Mueller
Mar 1950 p 10 @ about upright rowing- aka- high pull-up
Feb 1952 p 60 @ Van Diggelen compares HG to John Davis
Jun 1952 p 11 Training methods of HG, 3 pho- Mueller
Aug 1952 p 25 Training methods of HG, 2 pho-Mueller
Sep 1956 p 31 @ pho deadlift of 595.50 p 62 4@ obit June 29,1956
Nov 1956 p 13 When G broke the grip machine, 2 pho- Willoughby
Feb 1963 p 27 ran 100 meters in 18.5 seconds while carrying a 110.25 lb kettlebell in each hand
Jul 1972 p 30 lengthy @ about his feats
Sep 1972 p 21 @ about thick handled weight
Sep 1976 p 24 grip feats and 727.50 deadlift on Oct 8, 1920
Jul 1977 p 47 HG- Todd
May 1986 p 32 HG- man of super power- Charles A. Smith
Dec 1991 p 70 HG- Chapman
Other Hermann Goerner reading refs: Superman Apr 1934 story by Irving Clark
PLUSA Jun 1989 p 38 Paragraphs of History- Roark
Muscle & Fitness Sep 1991 p 170 HG- Jan & Terry Todd
Your Physique Jul 1950 p 35 Gaudreau declines to include or comment on some of HG's claims.
Iron Grip Apr 2003 p 5 HG in Britain- Talbot & Horne
The Strength Athletes by Willoughby. See pages 90, 93-96, 97, 105, 114, 131, 134-136, 138, 153, 169, 171-172, 175, 181, 184,198-199, 208, 209, 213, 216, 231, 233, 243, 247, 286, 287, 349, 471, 544.
Mighty Men of Old pages 1, 12 - Venables
Bodybuildingn An Illustrated History pages 45, 50- Webster
The Iron Game by Webster: 56-57, 58, 67, 84, 109,113, 152
The above should be helpful in undertaking a serious study of Goerner and his lifts. Of course, I lack many articles that have been written about him, so any refs that you care to share would be welcome.
Please consider joining us at ironhistory.com for our forums.
Posted by TheEditor @ 08:12 PM CST
5/21/2004: Letter from Charles A. Smith to Joe Roark Aug 28, 1986
Thursday, May 20, 2004
Letter from Charles A. Smith to Joe Roark Aug 28, 1986
[Please note that due to the delicate nature of this letter, I edited out certain names-Joe]
Dear Joe,
Thanks for your letter dated August 25th, which reached me yesterday. Thanks also for the card with the date and page of the XXX shot [photograph].
I looked carefully at this, under a glass, and there is XXX there. But what terrible cruelty Hoffman was urged by to publish such a picture, knowing the entire story as he did and the great tragedy it was to all parties concerned, is beyond me. How any man could be so cruel, so deliberately thoughtless is just beyond my understanding. I knew he was a gigantic shit head, but not that bid. This was a deliberate attempt to rake open a wound and for no reason that I can see, that would do the slightest good. Poor XXX, Poor XXX, and poor child.
This all fits in with my seeing XXX and XXX together in some motel room in Indianapolis in the 1953 Senior Nationals and Mr. America. I may have told you- can't remember- that I had gone to XXX's room hoping for chit chat and a story for the Wunderkind, knocked at her door and was told to enter. She and XXX were sitting on her bed talking and the air seemed a little tense- I am very sensitive to such things- and after a while she said something to the effect that she was talking business and I left.
More comes out of this. It seems that Hoffman- great guardian of Amateurism as he was- had BOTH XXX and XXX on his pay roll- that is he was paying both a weekly stipend to lift for the York Barbell Club. This in itself, according to AAU rules, was wrong- payment not even considered- this had apparently been going on for years and with other members of the York Team- not forgetting the members of the Company who were, also contrary to AAU rules, competing in amateur contests. But when Hoffman heard of the birth of the child fathered by XXX, this great guardian of American amateurism, also elected himself guardian of American morals and FIRED XXX for it.
What makes this sort of thing even worse is that he got Marvin Eder barred from amateur competition because he had taken part in an unsanctioned Weider contest, and had also played a very nasty trick on Doug Hepburn merely becaue Hepburn had articles, written by me, appearing in Weider mags.
Let no man tell me what a great guy Hoffman was and what he did for American lifting. The man was a loud mouthed hypocrite with no redeeming features.
The very men he trusted were ripping him off right left and center. He was on the point of firing Steve XXX at one time for selling equipment off the loading dock and pocketing the money.
XXX also told me that�they had to fire George XXX for stealing money from orders that came in. He wasn't even smart about it, buying and driving around in an expensive Caddy. Two others among the EDITORIAL staff, according to XXX. Also had to be fired. Of course the two main culprits, whose who were really robbing Hoffman blind, got away with it.
People think Hoffman was without bigotry since he got so many ethnic groups working for him. However witness his treatment of XXX- something that was nothing of his concern and didn't bring down bad odor on York- Hoffman was renowned in that city as one of the biggest whoremasters living- but XXX allowing Harry Paschall�to remark of Weider in open print that, 'You can take the kike out of the gutter, but you can't take the gutter out of the kike,' was proof of Hoffman's stance so far as bigotry went. But enough.
You mentioned in a prior letter that Jones heaved Bruce XXX off his premises. I hear another story of how he held a gun on Arnold Schwarzenegger from some reason fabricated or real.
As for XXX, I don't know what to make of it. Why she dislikes me I don't know. But she does since the vibes I get from her are baddies. I always have got along well with women. They seem to like me too for some reason. But XXX seems to feel threatened by me and I don't know why. It may be because I can answer questions she�can't.
Best to you and yours,
Chas.
Posted by TheEditor @ 08:54 PM CST
5/14/2004: Letter from Charles A. Smith to Joe Roark Aug 19, 1986:
Thursday, May 13, 2004
Letter from Charles A. Smith to Joe Roark Aug 19, 1986:
I thought I'd better write and let you know all the recent developments.
First, Mac Batchelor is dead. He died August 10th at 4PM in his sleep. For some years he had been in a nursing home, broke to the world and in poor condition. He was totally blind at the time of his death, and wasted away a great deal and was diabetic-very. He was cremated. His daughter was there when he died, relayed the passing to Dr. Charles Moss who told us here in Austin.
Next. Rick XXX has had a heart attack and therefore your forecast is really messed up. Obviously induced by steroid sue. No other details available but this happened two or three weeks ago at least.
Next Oliva has had to go back to surgery because of bleeding twice. How true this is I don't know but I was told this by Bob XXX via a phone call.
You must also know by now that Art Jones sold Nautilus and intends to devote his remaining days to develop a computerized machine in which you can sit and it will tell you what exercises you need and do'em for you. No details of the sale or price mentioned but I am sure it will involve a cash payment and the rest of the purchase price either paid off in shares in the new company or payments spread over a number of years to avoid excessive tax payments, now that they've cut the capital long term gains tax down.
Dave XXX died, as I think I mentioned in a recent letter of some nasty fungus disease. Vera [Charles' daughter, a nurse] who by the way is now on her way to Ethiopia for three months- says that the hospital should have KNOWN what was wrong since every respiratory case that can't be diagnosed, Valley Fever should be automatically suspect. She also says that his steroid taking is the real culprit since taking this much lowers the body's resistance to infection, much like AIDS.
Now for more good news. Larry XXX has been busted for drug smuggling. It is said to have happened thus. A large parcel arrived from Europe marked in very large letters TOYS. The local DEA Customs, plus postal inspectors were suspicioned at this, opened the package from Europe and found it did indeed contain toys but the toys were stuffed with all sorts of goodies in the shape of steroids. So they sealed up the parcel, obtained a search and seizure, delivered the parcel, had XXX sign for it and BINGO, descended on him like a hoard of locusts. XXX screams out loudly, 'I WUZ FRAMED. FOUL'. Etc., etc. Oh how many times have I heard that cry from the heart. I always replied bullshit. I don't doubt the DEA men, customs and postal inspectors responded likewise. What is happening now I don't know. The Law will have to prove he knew what was in the parcel. No signs of prosecution yet.
I had a long call from Bob XXX who told me about the new owner of IRON MAN. When he had called me previously, he didn't know IM had been sold. He called back to say that it was indeed true, that John Balek [ Balik] and a cousin, Mike Neuveux had got it. He also said that the WEIDERS were NOT behind it, that both were ticked off vastly at Balek for doing what he did. Meanwhile rumors continued to float around to the effect that the fine Weider hand was back of the purchase, that it would run a few issues then quietly pass away and, apart from MD, Weider would be left with the field.
Then I got a call from Balek. He says he has read my article, LET'S HAVE SOME HONESTY IN WEIGHT TRAINING, will use it in his first issue and is sending me a check- which he did- got it yesterday. Then he goes on to say in answer to my question, that Weider is NOT but NOT back of it, that he has made his own move and intends to run his own mag.
He goes on to say the format, apart from minor technical changes will stay the same, that he is fed up with all of you know who's commercialism and sycophancy, that IM will remain as it always has been- an open forum with as little commercialism as possible, that he will change the type face to ROMAN type face and will up the size of the type to 9 point, that there will NOT be any more two authors with three articles apiece in the same issue, that he will cut down on the detailed accounts of the Mr. this and that contests, that he will include a powerlifting article or two and pay for articles. He also said he has obtained promises from Arty Zeller and Arnold Schwarzenegger that they will contribute photos to the mag, etc., etc.
He also admitted that he was still working for Weider but only until Weider found someone to take his place. There you have it. Meanwhile rumors continue to float around to the effect that Woodland Hills is back of the entire deal.
Now for a little icing on the cookie. The Brothers Weider have opened their own travel agency right next to their Woodland Hills headquarters. It seems they were doing so much air lines travel personally, staff members, Bodybuilding 'Stars' etc., etc that they figured they might as well make any profits themselves rather than others make from them. That's the first time I ever heard if having your cake and eating it ditto.
Insofar as Balek and IM are concerned, we shall see what we shall see. Proof of the pudding etc etc and all those other slick little platitudes. One more issue of IM under the Rader banner and it's Balek's turn.
Came across something very very curious the other day while going through a batch of letters twixt Coulter and Jowett circa 1945. In one letter Ottley wrote to Jowett apologizing for not having written for some time, but he is doing so now because he has heard something terrible has happened in the Jowett family.
He goes on to relate that he was at a lifting meet where Hoffie the Bold was present, that Hoffman had told him Jowett was in terrible condition because his daughter Phyllis had died.
Ottley goes on to say that he knows this must be true since even Blow hard Hoffman wouldn't dare to spread such a tale unless it was so. Ottley says he hopes it isn't true, but is afraid it is and says how sorry he is and what can he do to help Jowett in this terrible loss.
Back comes a letter from Jowett and tells Ottley that his loss is indeed heartbreaking, that he is so torn up about it that he doesn't know what to do and where to turn to, that it is a loss to the family so terrible he doesn't know how he will ever bear it etc etc.
But nowhere in the letter does he MENTION that Phyllis is dead, or of ANYONE DIED.
Now, last Saturday I got a letter from John Dawe to tell me he and his wife are visiting PHYLLIS in a week or so where she STILL LIVES IN MORRISBURG. Hmmmmmmm.
I note your panacea of a substance distilled from the purified urine of the snow leopard. I have come up with a substance MUCH MUCH more result producing. It consists of two pounds of tuna scales powder mixed with five quarts of unadulterated piss of the Polynessian Fruit Bat and is guaranteed to put muscles everywhere, even on your micturation. So there,
Best wishes to you and yours, will keep you posted re developments.
Chas
PS. I gave your address to Balek saying you had the greatest filing system in the world, that you could turn up anything for him. Friend Teegarden charges 20 bucks for 'consultation fee' so why don't YOU explore this idea.
Posted by TheEditor @ 07:54 PM CST
May 7, 2004: Understanding Joe Roark's Code System
Thursday, May 6, 2004
Posted by TheEditor @ 08:23 PM CST
