Iron History

[Previous entry: "10/3/2008: Letter from Charles A. Smith to Joe Roark, December 11, 1987 pp 3-4"] [Main Index] [Next entry: "10/17/2008 - December 17, 1987 letter from Charles A. Smith to Joe"]

10/09/2008 Entry: "10/10/2008 - Q&A With Joe"

Question:

Joe,
I have read verying reports of the height of Louis Cyr, from 5'8" to 5'11".What was his actual height? Secondly, at what bodyweight did he perform his greatest feats of strength?

Thanks.

Answer:

Good question!
In Your Physique magazine Dec/Jan 1944/1945 Willoughby offers the changing bodyweight of Cyr over a range of 19 years:
In 1891- 294 lbs, in 1896-315 lbs, and in 1910-365 lbs. In all that time span Willoughby gives the height at 70.5" (or 5'10.5").

But in Super Athletes page 56 Willoughby offers "when full-grown he stood only 5 ft. 8-1/2 in." Which would be, of course, 68.5".

Cyr's public career spanned from 1881 to 1906, with probably his peak in the time zone of 1892-1896 when he would have weighed approx. 300 to 315 lbs.

Cyr's backlift, estimated at 4,300 lbs, Willoughby thought unlikely, and more likely around 3,900 to 4,000 lbs- allowing 500 lbs (a liberal estimate Willoughby asserted) for the backlift platform [compare to Anderson's claimed 1,800 pound platform!) and the bodyweights of 18 men- who were not weighed but simply stated their weights. This was May 27, 1895.

Question:

Joe,
What is Val Vasilieff's birth place and Nationality?

Answer:

Val was born in Lincoln Hospital in NYC. I am told his date of birth is confidential, but if he was, as reported, age 25 when he won the Mr. America in 1964, then his year of birth would be approx 1939.

Question:
Dear Mr.Roark,
I think Your "Iron History" is interesting and amazing work.

Iron mans in the past are very good, my favorite are Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sergio Oliva.
About Sergio I know two measured data:
1. Height - 178 cm,weight - 96 kg, chest - 134 cm, biceps - 53 cm, waist - 80 cm, thigh -72 cm, calf - 47 cm;
2.Height - 178 cm,weight - 94 kg, chest - 132 cm, biceps - 52 cm, waist - 80 cm, thigh -72 cm, calf - 47 cm.

I heard that in 1972 at Mr.Olympia competition his arms was 58 cm and waist - 70 cm! This is fantastic.
Is it correct? Have You any data about Sergio's measurement at this competition(Mr.Olympia'72),or other measured data ?

With best regards,
Vesselin Radev

Answer:

Mr. Radev,

When I asked Sergio in Atlanta at the time of a Mr. Olympia some years ago if I could measure his arm- which remained huge-he said no, and that 'your guess is as good as mine' about its size. Had I guessed 17", Im not sure what his response wouldhave been.

In his prime, Arthur Jones measured Sergio's flexed upper arm at 20.5" I believe; Arnold's was slightly smaller.

There is no reliable source for the measurements of top bodybuilders. Lots of gossip, rumor, hype though.

Unless there are witnesses and the tape measure is correct, some of the reported size claims should embarrass those making them. And when verification is avoided, then at least for me, so is belief.

Question:

I was in Vancouver not long ago and will be back in the near future. Do you have any information about the final resting places of Doug Hepburn and John McCallum?

Thanks.

Answer:

Marvin,
Sorry, I do not know.

Have you tried running a search on feneralnet.com ?

Victoria has one funeral home listed, and if you call, perhaps they will have a record if they handled services.

Roland Essmaker, Mr. America 1939, died last Thursday, Oct 3, and I did some checking, found the funeral home, and some details (after a newspaper search failed)- then learned from the funeral home official that no newspaper reports would be printed, that only a graveside service will be held tomorrow at the San Marcos, California, Cemetery. (Oct 7 at 2pm)

One of the databases I have hoped to get going is one listing where famous iron people are buried- but this would depend on many, many people offering details.

Not too long ago I was in York, and Jan Dellinger took me to the graves of John Grimek, John Terpak, and Bob Hoffman.

Good luck with your search! Tell the funeral home folks that Hepburn died Nov 22, 2000. He was cremated. A friend of mine attended that service, so I will try to reach him for details.

McCallum died Sep 21, 1989.

Question:

Joe,

I'm enjoying your Iron History column immensely! Would like to see detailed coverage of Apollon and Arthur Saxon beginning next year.

My question is did Apollon ever lift overhead the 366lb Apollon Wheels? We know that Rigoulot, Davis, and Schemansky have done so, but does anyone know for sure if Apollon himself actually did it? Osmo Kiiha tends to doubt it (see Iron Master #15 page 6). Just wondering what your opinion is on this.

Regards,
Joe Matrisciano

Answer:

Joe,

Yes, I think Apollon could handle the wheels and did so often. He lifted 15 lbs less on a thicker bar.
Remember, Apollon always power cleaned- no dipping. Please see cyberpump.com news archives for Jan 14, 2002 for my piece on the history of the wheels.

Thanks,
Joe

Question:

How much did Davis weigh when he lifted the wheels? Was it when he weighed <90kg or after he gained to 233 or something?

Answer:

Nathan,

John Davis had competed in the World's WL championships at about 225.5 lbs the week before he lifted the wheels, so he would have been in that range on the date of the wheels, which was Sep 13, 1949.

Question:

I'm curious as to the specifics of the 727 pound lift: thickness of bar, presence of knurling, revolving sleeves or not, and was the lockout complete? I tend to value this feat as the single greatest exhibit of strength in modern times, if indeed it was a standard olympic type bar lifted to full lockout. Joe, do you have an opinion?

Answer:

This amount was an unofficial lift; officially Hermann managed 663.5 three
weeks later, officially.

Here is the essence Willoughby from ironman Feb 1963 p 42 about the 727.5 lbs. "...one-handed deadlift (using a thumb-lock, or hooked grip)..."

largest plates were 17.75" diameter, bar was 1.1" thick, Goerner's
bodyweight was 220 lbs- so his official one hand deadlift of 663.5 lbs
was TRIPLE his BODYWEIGHT. One handed? He was 29.5 years old and in the last year of his amateur standing.

Check the Extras section for the official definition of the right or left hand deadlift, because 'full-lockout' as you may be thinking (trunk vertical) was NOT a requirement for the one handed deadlift (at least in Britain- HG was in Leipzig, Germany). In Britain the requirement was to get the bar 'at least' to the knees. Frankly, I do not know what the German rule was.

My opinion? Have not settled on this one yet, but there is doubt in my view.

Question:

I read your response on another board about the arm size of john grimek. I have that same ironman from where the info came from. an article from the iron master by osmo kiiha stated that his arm was 18.5 inches cold. The same ironman issue had an interview with reeves also. He stated 18.25" arm, calf and neck. I was wondering if that was a slight exageration too? He always talked about symmetry and I'm curious if he makes those claims to support his idea of the ideal physique.

I was also curious of who was the first muscular individual to have legit 20" arms. I have heard mcwilliams, colbert and countless others. with everybody exagerating I'm guessing it didn't really happen till the 1970's or even the 80's? possibly sergio? thanks.

Answer:

I have a letter from John McWilliams in which he tells me his largest upper arm size was 20.5" with the measurement taken cold (before pumping up).

Sergio would not allow me to measure his arm a few years ago in Atlanta, and he looked huge. Jim Quinn refused me; Paul Dillett refused me; Nasser El Sonbaty refused me.

I frankly do not know whose arm measured how much, if all we have to use as judgment is the subject's word.

Grimek and Reeves were not known for their huge upper arms- and that is not intended as a slight to them in any way.

I measured Vince Taylor's pumped arm at 19.75", and I measured Manfred Hoeberl's cold arm at 25.5 and pumped at 26" (not a misprint, twenty-six inches).

Just as we should pay no attention to lifting claims without proof, so we should ignore measurement claims without proof.

Taylor gained my respect that night backstage at the Arnold Classic- I was expecting another refusal and he said 'Sure, no big deal'. I said, 'Oh, it's a big deal to those to claim more than they have'.

One of the planned features for ironhistory is a review of arm size through the years- from the days when people actually employed a tape measure rather than a guess to determine circumference, to the current days when some photos show such obvious fake measurements that you'd suppose the photographer and the builder being measured should be banned to the
land of loonies.

Nutshell: an 18" arm is large, a 19" arm is huge, a 20" arm is a wondrous sight, and anything larger is seldom encountered in the 'natural' world.

Question:

Mr. Roark:I am intrigued by the idea that several well-known "records" were actually exaggerated.First,does anyone of equal stature to yourself in the Iron Game History field believe that Goerner's and Inch's claims might be valid? and second, what is your take on Doug Hepburn's critique of some of Paul Anderson's claims,or claims made for Paul by someone else,such as the 300 pound db press? Thank you for listening.

Answer:

Jeff,

Before I began studying Inch's claims regarding his famous 172 pound dumbell, or began looking into Paul's famous backlift, I accepted the views that had been presented over the years because there was no opposing view, which I had thought surely would have been presented had there been any dissent.

Regarding Inch, after several months of almost obsessive study of every reference I could find about him, it became sky blue clear that either no one else had ever studied the matter this intently, or if they had, either conclusions varied from mine, or had been kept away from print. If I were asked to defend Inch and his lifting of the Inch 172 bell 'hundreds of times'
I would be forced to ignore several texts and several pieces of his own presentation of the facts over the years, and go with just his claims.

I am unaware of anyone publicly doubting Inch before my MuscleSearch presentation years ago, or the more recent research (in which I found errors in my MuscleSearch conclusions) in ironhistory.com. Now, amazingly, it appears that when Mark Henry cleaned the Inch bell at the Olde Timers gathering in Saddle Brook, New Jersey, this year, it is generally being accepted as the FIRST TIME the bell has ever been cleaned. No one, that I am aware of, is rushing to re-instate the 'hundreds of reps' that Inch claims he managed.

Regarding whether other historians agree with me, frankly, I wish they would speak publicly to the issue- even if they disagree with me- because perhaps I missed something. If not, then their reinforcement would certainly help settle the matter.

Regarding Anderson, same situation. The simple math of the matter is again sky blue. If Paul claimed that after he had added weights to the safe, it ended up weighing 3,500 pounds (and he did claim that), but in fact the safe weighed about 2,300 pounds (and it does) then the 1,200 pound difference in reality must be subtracted from the overall total of 6,270. Why this reporting error happened? Don't know. But it did happen, so for the sake of accurate history it should be noted. If you have not seen the photo of this safe, please check the ironhistory.com gallery.

After checking with master locksmiths I learned that there was another, larger safe that did weigh 3500 pounds, so perhaps this is where the error entered the picture. Nonetheless, the safe Paul used for the backlift and which his daughter had weighed came out at about 2,300 pounds. This is not rocket science, but simple math.

Regarding whether other historians agree with my conclusions. Again no one has spoken publicly that I am aware of, except Randall Strossen whose conclusions are the opposite of mine. I think he is wrong, he thinks I am wrong. If Glossbrenner has spoken to the issue I am unaware of it- same with Chapman, Webster, or others. I did hear privately from another historian who acknowledged that he thought I had shown that Paul did not perform the claim backlift. This is a very respected man who used to think I was 'after' Paul. Until I check with him for permission to mention his name (he contacted me privately) I will not use his name. But the list is short of possible candidates. And, of course, professor John Fair's writings indicate he has reached the same conclusions as have I.

Hepburn's upper body strength in some ways surpassed Anderson's- most certainly in the two hands barbell curl, so Doug was not in awe of Paul. Indeed, Doug told me that he thought he was stronger than Paul in the bench press- at least on one occasion when they had an impromptu contest.

The one arm pressing claims for Anderson, which are usually described as side presses (hopefully NO ONE would assert they were military presses, or bent presses) range in poundages enough one wonders about range of motion and weight involved. I simply don't know. Any photos I have seen of his one arm presses do not plate-total to the amount the photo caption indicates. Again, Doug's pressing ability was in Paul's neighborhood. Did Doug make such claims? Frankly I have not studied Paul's one arm presses as much as I have his backlift. I will say, any number of lifters have surpassed Paul's official weightlifting records, but no one has come anywhere near a 300 pound one arm side press, anyone that I am aware of, that is.

Perhaps someone can shed additional information on these matters.

Regarding Goerner, please keep in mind that some of the very high deadlift numbers were also unofficial lifts. It is important to know WHEN certain lifts were first reported because sometimes numbers become inflated as the years pass. I have not looked into Goerner's feats in the detail needed, so will not comment beyond saying that what I have checked causes me some concern, especially when very skilled lifters in his day expressed concern.

No one loves the history of iron more than I. Any love demands honesty.