Iron History

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03/03/2005 Entry: "3/4/2005: Some Iron History Q&A with Joe"

Question:

Based on your research, do you consider a ratio of one's upper arm size to wrist size an valid measure of one's upper body muscular development (given a bodyfat% of 10%)?

If so, could you provide some yardsticks or goals to strive for?

Regards,

Chris Heer

Answer:

Chris, It does appear that wrist circumference can be used as a ratio of limits.To measure the forearm the way the oldtimers did, keep the entire arm straight: no bending the elbow, no bending at the wrist. A clenched fist is allowed. Measured in this way, if a forearm is twice the wrist circumference there is a world class forearm being measured! Measure around the most muscular part of the forearm but keep the tape perpendicular to the forearm itself- no 'slanting' of the tape.

In regard to upper arm size, the only arm I have ever heard of being triple the wrist was Manfred Hoeberl's when I measured it twice backstage and measured it again on stage at the 1995 Arnold Classic. It was 25.5" backstage, and on stage after a few one arm curls, it measured 26", which was triple his wrist measurment.

Marla Duncan, the fitness model was also on stage and I measured her waistline- it was also 26". So her waist could have hung off Manfred's shoulder. Her waist width measured with calipers (Hey somebody's gotta do this hard research) was 10", which was also the height of Manfred's flexed upper arm!

Lastly, I placed one Pepsi can atop aother Pepsi can and put these up against his flexed upper arm, which was slightly taller than the height of the two cans! But even Manfred's forearm was NOT twice the size of his wrist. Actually when I am refused after asking to measure an upper arm, I request to measure the wrist. Then I know the probable limits.

Question:

This might seem like a strange question, but I was wondering what the views of the old time strongmen and lifters from the late 1800s-mid 1950s was on aerobic exercise. Many powerlifters today feel that while trying to gain strength it is counterproductive but good for weight loss. Did lifters back then even have awareness of aerobic exercise? Thanks!
Steve

Answer:

Though articles can be written about a topic without that topic being mentioned in the title, it is interesting that the earliest article on aerobics in my files was: Mr. America May 1969 You Can Build Athletic Fitness with Aerobics and Anaerobics- by Murray

As one suspected by looking at some of the oldtimers, aerobics, especially as we understand the term was not a major (if any) portion of their training.

Even the Farmer's Walk aka Farmer's Carry, wherein the heartbeat can increase at tremendous rate by simply walking quickly while carrying a heavy weight in each hand is a relatively new feat. Lifting News reported Bill Piephoff carry a 'thick handled' 160 lb bell in each hand for 130 yards on Jul 4, 1959 to win that event.

Even the overhead of lifting of weights whether one handed or two handed was not done for many reps in the sense we understand that term today.

By thinking that body size whether from muscle or from fat created strength, some of the oldtimers put themselves into a position of not feeling 'inclined' to perform aerobic work.

Question:

Joe,

Speaking of Paul Anderson you stated:

In general terms, he increased his press 57 lbs in 23 months, his clean and jerk went from 425 to 440 in 14 months (a pound a month).

If you refer to his leg strength increases, then yes, phenomenal gains at
a pace that literally lapped his opponents.

Question:
For comparison purposes, can you outline or estimate Paul's leg strength increases in the squat in weekly or monthly terms similar to those stated for his pressing and clean and jerk? Can you give an estimate of his age at the time these impressive gains were being made?

Thanks for sharing such vast and valuable knowledge!

Answer:

Well, here the the milestones in Paul's single rep squats; poundages rounded off:

Oct 25, 1952 605 lbs
Dec 27, 1952 660 lbs
May 17, 1953 714 lbs
Jul 25, 1953 762 lbs (which was 97 lbs more than anyone else)
Jan 2, 1954 820 lbs in 1955 he was credited with 900 with a 3 second bottom pause. Was this in official competition? Also in 1955 reference is made to 910 lbs. In 1957 his silver dollar squat in Reno, Neveda at the Mapes Hotel had been variously reported at from 900 to 1100 or more pounds, and when Paul mentioned in Nov 1964 that his best squat to date was 1,200 lbs, I assume that was also the silver dollar squat.

So officially, it appears his best squat went from 605 to 820 from Oct 1952 to Jan 1954- a span of 14 or 15 months. His unoffical squats, not performed on standard equipment were reported as 1,100 or 1,200 pounds, which some will defend and some will question.

He is also credited with fantastic poundages in the rep squat- perhaps ten reps with 700 or even 800, but these were sometimes impromptu and not in official settings.

However, it is my opinion, that Paul remains the greatest squatter we have yet seen. Sometimes lacking gear to the point of no shoes! Certainly none of the nonsense gear outer and 'inner' that is so prevalent today.

Question:

Given the popularity of the bench press, I was wondering when it first started appearing as a performed exercise. Is there any history associated with its creation? I know that deadlifts and overhead presses have been performed practically since caveman days but I heard that the bench press is relatively new. I also hear that the heavy weighted parallel bar dip was actually the premier pushing movement of the sort that the bench is now back in the old days. Thanks
Steve

Answer:

Steve, Even though 'prone' means face down and supine means on the back, and this was commented upon in Health & Strength mag in Mar 1941, Ironman mag in its ads continued calling the bench press bench 'prone' until the May 1975 issue. (though it did appear correctly in articles before then)

The bench press has a family tree that includes the 'floor press' or the 'press on back'- meaning that the lifter would usually be on the floor, roll or lift or have handed to him the barbell and then perform reps with a range of motion hindered when the elbows contacted the floor, the very factor that gave rise to the idea of a bench so elbows could descend farther.

By May 1953 H&S was calling the movement 'press on bench' because the bench had been invented, apparently, in the late 1940s- albeit without uprights attached at first. H&S in 1953 offers 'This is a very new lift- it was introduced officially in 1951'.

Before upright supports were attached to the bench, independent uprights were set near the bench for the lifter- in the early days (by 1956) H&S offered an article on how to use bench press stands.

In 1958 Hubert Grills wrote in H&S saying that the bench press 'began to gain popularity at the end of WW II'.

Without stands/uprights, sometimes trainees would use the 'pullover and press'. One of Grimek's early articles on the BP was in Strength & Health Jun 1953.

Ironman offered a how to make a bench article in Dec 1948.

S&H's first ad for an adjustable bench was 1950, first with three positions of adjustment, later that year with nine.

There is a photo presented in 1951 at Irv Johnson's Gym in Chicago that shows a bench with uprights.

Hopes this helps- quick sketch; incline, decline etc all being added at various times. But of course the real 'decline' in the bench press came when elbows were wrapped and bench shirts were invented.

Question:

What information do you have as to JC Hise's top squat and deadlift? I have seen both recorded as 600 x 1 and 700 x 1, but never anything between, and never a mention of when they were actually done. Also, since Hise was one of the first devotees of high rep squatting, I was wondering what info you have as to his abilities there. I have read or heard 500 x 20, but that seems quite high for a 600 one rep max. Thanks.

Answer:

There is very little in my files about specific lifts and dates for Hise. He did once defeat Grimek in a lifting contest though- a fact that Grimek did not remember at first.

Ironman mentioned in May 1961 that JCH was then living in Uravan, Colorado and squatting 500 pounds for 20 reps- but this was on the Douglass Hula-Hoop (Magic Circle).

Two years before that S&H mentioned JCH was squatting 400 for 25 reps, one assumes with barbell.

I have dozens of articles on Hise that I have not yet added to my files- mostly I have studied his chronology. So the top single for the squat and deadlift may be in one of those articles.

If anyone has the details handy please share them, along with your source for the info. Thanks. Regarding the deadlift- don't know.